Is VR Great?

[RCHeliguy]

I can see glare in the Beyond. It shows up mostly in my splash screens. It is very much there, but when I'm in game, I'm not seeing it.

So far in iRacing, Dirt Rally, DCS in helicopters, In Death, Beat Saber, Space Pirate Trainer, HLA ( brief stint), it has not bothered me.

However, if any light leaks though the cushion it shows up horribly as glare and I do mean horribly. So getting that perfect seal is critical.

The Beyond needs to be dialed in to work properly.

It needs the right IPD, a good facial scan for the cushion to fit right and proper placement on your face. In my case the cushion is centering the headset perfectly, but I have to adjust the tilt to get it just right.

On top of that if you are sensitive to persistence, that can be its own issue and that is 100% a roll of the dice.

I would also say that the cushion will over time fit better, which means it is deforming. As a result you need to store it flat and not with anything pressing on the cushion.

After saying all that, because of how obvious it is in splash screens, if a game looked in a way similar to those splash screens, in game, it would be highly distracting.

Steve (VR Flight Sim Guy) has said that MSFS is the worst title he's experienced. I need to try the title out just to see if I feel the same way.

 

[Neilski]

In this video you can clearly see that the BSB suffers from CA:

Interesting video. To my eye, with very limited VR experience (Rift CV1 ) I'd sum it up as follows... The Index looks pretty terrible by comparison to the other two, though it does still have better image quality in one or two shots (a subjective thing of course). The G2 is great in some shots, and very meh in others, while the Beyond looks like a winner in most of the shots, but with nasty blurring in a few places.

The way these videos were recorded has issues, of course, and the guy notes that the vignetting in some places (or maybe just the Beyond?) is a side-effect of the lens not seeing quite what your eye would see. Having vignetting also means that the clarity of the image is questionable, since the camera sensor isn't receiving the full "ray bundle" and thus the blurring and CA could be better/worse or just the same as a human eyeball would experience.

I would have expected that by now, there would be people out there with the equipment to do VR videos "right". Is this the case?
(By "right", I mean having a camera lens with an entrance pupil right up front where the eyeball's entrance pupil would be sitting.)

 

[RCHeliguy]

I would have expected that by now, there would be people out there with the equipment to do VR videos "right". Is this the case?
(By "right", I mean having a camera lens with an entrance pupil right up front where the eyeball's entrance pupil would be sitting.)

This is an interesting point. VR YouTubers are pretty low tech and just guys running a channel trying to get an audience. Bradley of SadlyitsBradley has made comments about how he would love to earn enough money from his channel to invest in analytical equipment that could actually accurately measure headsets because of how very primitive and in some cases useless testing is today.

Some measurements are essentially useless because of how much they vary from one person to the next. FOV is a great example of this. There is just no guarantee what you will see with a specific head shape. If you have a pronounced cheek and brow with your eyes set back deeply, you will have less FOV. If you have a flatter face with your eyes much closer to the edge of your brow and cheeks, then you will have a larger FOV. Everyone is somewhere on a spectrum.

But yes the Beyond did look the best of those headsets being compared with his limited ability to measure things.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

In this video you can clearly see that the BSB suffers from CA:

Some people don't even notice the CA in the Pimax Crystal. Maybe you'll also not see CA in the Crystal if you had it. This while it's very obvious for me(but it's not an huge issue with the Crystal when using it without Almalence(but probably the only real flaw of the image)) and the Aero was even unusable for me with the insane amount of CA, it's really horrible with the Aero.

So I understand that when you come from the Aero, that it "feels" like the BSB got as good as no CA. Because the difference is massive with the Aero, the Aero is probably the worst hmd on the planet when it comes to CA; but there clearly is still CA in the BSB and way to much to ignore if I must believe that video.

Just a random comment, but 3 years old $500 G2 looks quite awesome comparing to the other two. The only thing that progressed in 3 years for similar image quality is price, or should we call it "regressed".

 

[Pär Öqvist]

My g2 was 900$. Dont look nearly as good as quest 3 or varjo

 

[RCHeliguy]

My g2 was 900$. Dont look nearly as good as quest 3 or varjo

And the Beyond looks better than the Varjo.

 

[RCHeliguy]

BTW with regard to that image that looks like CA. I do see that in my beyond if I don't have it tilted properly.

With the pancake lenses, I need to get them angled properly and I see what looks like oversharpening on horizontal surfaces or even like CA. When it have them tilted correctly, that all completely disappears.

That's actually how I get my headset situated. I put the headset on and then tilt it until those artifacts disappear. Then I have it situated properly and I'm ready.

 

[gamma123152]

BTW with regard to that image that looks like CA. I do see that in my beyond if I don't have it tilted properly.

With the pancake lenses, I need to get them angled properly and I see what looks like oversharpening on horizontal surfaces or even like CA. When it have them tilted correctly, that all completely disappears.

That's actually how I get my headset situated. I put the headset on and then tilt it until those artifacts disappear. Then I have it situated properly and I'm ready.

In any headset the CA reduces with ~90% when you wear it correctly with a perfect IPD setting for the center/sweetspot, but it never "completely disappears".

This experience of you is the same as the glare story: YOU don't notice it ingame anymore, so to your feeling it's completely disappeared but I'm sure that when someone else that's more sensitive to such subjects wears the HMD; that they will still see the CA/glare ingame(as many pointed out already, yesterday there was a review of the BSB in the other VR thread that clearly stated how big the glare issue ingame is(once again)).

My initial point was that the BSB and all other hmd's on the market have some kind of CA, so all headsets will benefit from almalence/CA correction. You're simply wrong that the BSB has "zero CA", it's simply not the case. But one HMD got more CA than a other HMD, I think that the BSB is on the lower end of the list(Aero on top). So if the BSB had eye tracking with pupil tracking then there would surely be a visual difference to observe, in that case you could have also seen the difference for sure but you're not able to evaluate the difference since the BSB doesn't have eye tracking.

The same goes for quad views, the difference in DCS with quad views is insane, the performance almost doubles and if you combine this with almalence then you can see what the future of VR really has to offer(and for DCS already now, but only 2 titles are supported DCS and Pavlov). Eye tracking is a mandatory feature in the end because the biggest (future) VR software/performance improvements will simply be and are now already based on eye tracking.

 

[gamma123152]

And the Beyond looks better than the Varjo.

And the Crystal looks better than the Beyond.

But the G2 was a beast of a HMD. In my opinion it was even better than the Aero. Because the Aero had a lot of visual issues that the G2 didn't have: such a warping distortion, unusably bad stereo overlap, motion blur while moving your head, color shifting on a level that was insane compared to any other hmd. Yes the Aero is more clear and has WAY more resolution and nits(which are both very important for a good VR experience) than the G2 but the Aero was not "better" for me, I constantly saw the con's that I described which made the experience worse. I returned it at the time and went back to the G2, and I still think that it was the right choice at the time. But now it's outdated for obvious reasons with the Crystal, Quest 3/Pro and BSB on the market(even the Pico 4 is probably a better choice, but that's debatable).

 

[RCHeliguy]

So much chatter about headsets that have such a brief day in the sun.

What is wrong with us?

 

[gamma123152]

Interesting video. To my eye, with very limited VR experience (Rift CV1 ) I'd sum it up as follows... The Index looks pretty terrible by comparison to the other two, though it does still have better image quality in one or two shots (a subjective thing of course). The G2 is great in some shots, and very meh in others, while the Beyond looks like a winner in most of the shots, but with nasty blurring in a few places.

The way these videos were recorded has issues, of course, and the guy notes that the vignetting in some places (or maybe just the Beyond?) is a side-effect of the lens not seeing quite what your eye would see. Having vignetting also means that the clarity of the image is questionable, since the camera sensor isn't receiving the full "ray bundle" and thus the blurring and CA could be better/worse or just the same as a human eyeball would experience.

I would have expected that by now, there would be people out there with the equipment to do VR videos "right". Is this the case?
(By "right", I mean having a camera lens with an entrance pupil right up front where the eyeball's entrance pupil would be sitting.)

True, yes it could be done right but YouTubers don't use the right equipment, almost all use a simple phone camera which causes all kinds of issues. So such comparisons are unfair indeed, because the camera is not always fitted for the HMD and some issues couldn't be caught easilly on camera and other issues arise/are created by the phone camera that aren't really there in reality.

Back to Almalence, this is how you do a proper through the lens footage:

 

[Deleted member 197115]

True, yes it could be done right but YouTubers don't use the right equipment, almost all use a simple phone camera which causes all kinds of issues.

Not the case with Tyriel's videos.

 

[gamma123152]

Not the case with Tyriel's videos.
View attachment 714624

His captures are something between a phone camera and what Almalence does I would say.

Talking about glare...:

It seems that he doesn't take that footage with the lights in the room off?

Or is the glare THAT bad in the BSB?? (see the dashboard at 4 mins 39secs, nothing is left from the "OLED blacks")

 

[RCHeliguy]

A Lumix ? Seriously? It's a high end PHD ( push here dummy ) camera.

Realistically you need a 3 sensor video camera OR a camera with a layered sensor without a Bayer pattern. Maybe a higher end 36Mp or higher camera with a quality lens would out resolve the pixels well enough to not create their own artifacts.

You certainly don't want to use an ultra zoom lens on something like this.

This is taken with a Lumix.

 

[blekenbleu]

(By "right", I mean having a camera lens with an entrance pupil right up front where the eyeball's entrance pupil would be sitting.)

Depending on what is to be evaluated, here are 10 options:
Almalence has 6 (3 lenses x 2 sensors)

• 87 ppd for e.g. MTF and CA
• 15 ppd for geometric distortion and mura (95 degree FoV)
• 44 ppd compromise
• with Bayer RGB or monochrome sensor

Instrument Systems' LumiTop AR/VR 2D imaging colorimeter
for luminance and color accuracy.

Alternatively,
Radiant AR/VR lens and any of 3 Imaging photometers

 

[Deleted member 197115]

A Lumix ? Seriously? It's a high end PHD ( push here dummy ) camera.

Realistically you need a 3 sensor video camera OR a camera with a layered sensor without a Bayer pattern. Maybe a higher end 36Mp or higher camera with a quality lens would out resolve the pixels well enough to not create their own artifacts.

You certainly don't want to use an ultra zoom lens on something like this.

This is taken with a Lumix.
View attachment 714639

View attachment 714640

Moire from fabric is something you can get with any sensor. Should not have any effect on the task at hands.
Lumix is not a brand, just Panasonic model lineup from simple point and shoot to the latest SLR DC-G9M2 with 25.2MP Four Thirds sensor 5776 x 4336.
Accidentally the best through the lens pictures I've managed to make were from phone camera, tried Macro lens with Canon SLR, never worked right, but small lens on the phone could almost perfectly align with the sweet spot on fresnel lens.
Do you have any through the lens pictures you can share, what is your technique?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Just saw a review from someone who has owned quite a few headsets including a Crystal. He's still working on getting his Beyond setup correctly for him which is why he mentioned "glimpse" below.

"Other headsets I've owned, for context: Varjo Aero, Pimax Crystal, Pimax 8kx, Valve Index, Quest Pro, and Quest 3.

When everything is perfectly aligned, I get a glimpse of the most beautiful, immersive VR I've ever seen. Obviously, the weight and form factor are amazing compared to everything else out there. The colors and black levels of OLED really add to the immersion. It's hard to explain, but things just look more solid. More like reality. It's like your brain detects that something is fake when looking at an LCD panel with washed out colors and grey darkness (even if it doesn't consiously bother you). I didn't realize that until I experienced the Beyond. Clarity is fantastic and so is the eye comfort. What I mean by eye comfort, is the ability to focus normally and comfortably. Where your eyes feel roughly the same in VR as they do out of it. Which is something I always have a big issue with in pretty much every headset other than Quest, Index, and now the Beyond. If my eyes can't focus normally, I can't be in VR very long before discomfort. "

 

[gamma123152]

Just saw a review from someone who has owned quite a few headsets including a Crystal. He's still working on getting his Beyond setup correctly for him which is why he mentioned "glimpse" below.

"Other headsets I've owned, for context: Varjo Aero, Pimax Crystal, Pimax 8kx, Valve Index, Quest Pro, and Quest 3.

When everything is perfectly aligned, I get a glimpse of the most beautiful, immersive VR I've ever seen. Obviously, the weight and form factor are amazing compared to everything else out there. The colors and black levels of OLED really add to the immersion. It's hard to explain, but things just look more solid. More like reality. It's like your brain detects that something is fake when looking at an LCD panel with washed out colors and grey darkness (even if it doesn't consiously bother you). I didn't realize that until I experienced the Beyond. Clarity is fantastic and so is the eye comfort. What I mean by eye comfort, is the ability to focus normally and comfortably. Where your eyes feel roughly the same in VR as they do out of it. Which is something I always have a big issue with in pretty much every headset other than Quest, Index, and now the Beyond. If my eyes can't focus normally, I can't be in VR very long before discomfort. "

So that guy seemed to have a focal distance issue with most hmd's. It's correct that the crystal for example has the shortest focal distance of all HMD's, if you have issues with seeing things closely to your eyes then the Crystal is probably the worst headset to own if you don't wear lenses. In the end the Crystal is of course the better headset when it comes to visuals, 1920px upscaled with 70/80nits will never look better than 2880px native with 200nits. But yes if you have issues with the focal distance then yes of course an other headset could look much better for the obvious reason, focal distance difference.

 

[RCHeliguy]

So that guy seemed to have a focal distance issue with most hmd's. It's correct that the crystal for example has the shortest focal distance of all HMD's, if you have issues with seeing things closely to your eyes then the Crystal is probably the worst headset to own if you don't wear lenses. In the end the Crystal is of course the better headset when it comes to visuals, 1920px upscaled with 70/80nits will never look better than 2880px native with 200nits. But yes if you have issues with the focal distance then yes of course an other headset could look much better for the obvious reason, focal distance difference.

He mentioned a lot of other things besides that which would seem to indicate that the Beyond has other areas where it looks better than anything he's ever owned.

But if you want to cherry pick one issue that you acknowledge, so be it.

 

[gamma123152]

He mentioned a lot of other things besides that which would seem to indicate that the Beyond has other areas where it looks better than anything he's ever owned.

But if you want to cherry pick one issue that you acknowledge, so be it.

No he's mainly talking about eye comfort compared to all other HMD's.

And yes he also talks about washed out blacks and colors but the colors and blacks are quite similar in the Crystal compared with the BSB(blacks a bit better of course but no massive difference, colors are both equally accurate). The BSB and Crystal stand way above all other HMD's regarding this subject so that leaves only the eye comfort subject.