iRacing created a great car...then broke it

[swervedriver]

Hello, all. I'm new to the forum, and I joined specifically to vent about iracing (I have to watch what I say on the official forums, for reasons familiar to many here).

A little while ago, iracing produced a gem of a car called the RUF Track. All the RUFs were fun, but this one was special. It had power, grip, predictable handling, and was an absolute blast to drive-in short, it was everything most cars in iracing aren't. And it was (and still is) going to be featured in the first multi-make, single-class category in iracing.

It was a great car. Many proclaimed it to be the best in the service. So iracing did the only thing they could: they broke it.

Last night, they released a build of the car that features a weird, wonky gearbox. Downshifting plain doesn't work. Missed shifts are now common, with the gearbox either slipping into neutral or not shifting at all. Driving the car now requires keeping one eye on the gear indicator, as you can never really be sure what gear you're in.

The car was great. Now it sucks. I can't think of any reasons they changed it, except for one:

Every car in iracing generates a ton of complaints. There were no complaints about the RUF, and we all know how nature abhors a vacuum.

What's worse is that there's a perfectly good build of the RUF out there, but iracing won't switch back to it, because to do so would be to admit a mistake. That doesn't happen often.

This was an idiotic move. There was no reason to try and fix something that wasn't broken. And there was definitely no reason to charge $11.95 for one car, only to turn that car into something else entirely just before the start of the new season.

I used to think iracing was flawed but fun. After this little stunt, however, my opinion has changed to two words: iracing sucks.

 

[Austin Ogonoski]

There are many more things wrong with iRacing than just the transmission in one of the RUF's.

Their heads are buried so far up in their arses that it's better to just switch games altogether.

If that's how they think a Super Late Model drives, they can keep it. Not to mention the understeer in the C6R and MP4-12C that makes it feel like you've hit a patch of black ice and are along for the ride. That's pretty hilarious.

How would I know?

I hit a patch of black ice in my street car and did $850 worth of damage.

And yet, there will still be people that call superior sims like LFS and AC "semi-pro" because they have "arcade" features like AI.

 

[Rhys Gardiner]

A transmission model that won't even let you stall the engine, much less fry a clutch is no where near the most sophisticated available;

That's a contradiction if I ever saw one.

I didn't hear of any GT3 cars at Daytona last weekend getting stuck in neutral while downshifting

Because they are professional drivers who know their way around the system. It's all about timing your downshifts... did you hear of any the GT3 cars at Daytona smashing down through the gears at high revs? No? well there you go...

and the entire reason semi-auto's have replaced manuals in racing is because they shift several times faster than a human ever could while performing a perfect rev-match every time.

A perfect rev-match when you can make a shift that won't damage the engine, and that is within the range accepted by the ECU. If the shift is going to end up with revs that are that high, then it's not a perfect rev-match. You see it in other cars and other sims as well - The F1 and HPD in iRacing, the Formula Reiza in GSC. Only difference is that instead of defaulting to neutral, these cars won't let you initiate a shift at all until it's safe to do so.

Once I figured out the ins and outs of the McLaren's ECU, the transmission aids no longer became an issue for me. Like I said, it's all about timing.

 

[DewCrew88]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_iy6NVSZnBw#t=205

Timo didnt miss any downshifts when he rapidfired. What an unrealistic transmission model real life has.

 

[Rhys Gardiner]

From the t=205 in the title, I'm assuming you mean 3 minutes 25 seconds? If so that's hardly rapidfire, I can do that in iRacing with no issues. The key is where in the rev range the car is at the time. If it's truly allowing rapidfire shifts (at high RPM) then I certainly stand corrected on the Porsche front. But the McLaren is designed around gentleman racers, and as such the implementation of such a system makes sense to me. Can I see an example of a McLaren rapidfiring?

 

[Austin Ogonoski]

Because they are professional drivers who know their way around the system. It's all about timing your downshifts... did you hear of any the GT3 cars at Daytona smashing down through the gears at high revs? No? well there you go....

Half of the GT3 cars at Daytona were gentlemen drivers and the commentators remarked several times how they were just rich dudes with a lot of money wanting to live out their childhood dreams.

GT3 cars are not death traps. If you disagree, you're wrong. The end.

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

That's a contradiction if I ever saw one.



Because they are professional drivers who know their way around the system. It's all about timing your downshifts... did you hear of any the GT3 cars at Daytona smashing down through the gears at high revs? No? well there you go

Professional drivers? You do realize that at any given time a third of the field was "gentlemen drivers" that were out there simply because they could write a check; not because they are driving gods? And isn't turn 1 at Daytona a textbook example of "smashing down through the gears at high revs"? I'm pretty sure the OP knows better than to try to downshift to first gear at 150 mph and probably knows how to time his downshifts, this is something you learn within a few minutes of being in a car for the first time, it's not like this is an advanced driving technique that only the most professional of drivers can comprehend.

Sorry if I offended anybody by pointing out flaws in their religion game.

From the t=205 in the title, I'm assuming you mean 3 minutes 25 seconds? If so that's hardly rapidfire, I can do that in iRacing with no issues. The key is where in the rev range the car is at the time. If it's truly allowing rapidfire shifts (at high RPM) then I certainly stand corrected on the Porsche front. But the McLaren is designed around gentleman racers, and as such the implementation of such a system makes sense to me. Can I see an example of a McLaren rapidfiring?

The OP pointed out a potential flaw in the Porsche and the video is of a real life Porsche....What the hell does a McLaren have to do with any of this? Anyhow, listen to the downshifting at about the 3:15 mark

 

[Rhys Gardiner]

Jesus, there goes the down-talking and ultra-defensive comments yet again. My sincere apologies for asking genuine questions. Okay, I was wrong - I didn't quite think through my initial reply to you Michael, sorry for that.

@Michael Hornbuckle I was asking about the McLaren because it is in the same car class and people were making the same comments about it. I just thought I could draw my own parallels to get a better picture of what iRacing is doing right or wrong. I am on a quest for information, just like anyone is.

@Austin Ogonoski I share your opinions about many things on iRacing - like I said earlier, the Australian racing scene is the only thing still tying me to this sim. I don't necessarily find the GT3 cars to be deathtraps, but oh well, that's your outlook I guess.

Gotta love the nature of the internet... even when posting under our real names, people are still eager as ever to jump on others and tear them to pieces over attempts at genuine discussion.

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

What did you think of the Chris Harris video? Not quite rapid fire high rpm downshifts but still goes from 4th to 1st in about a second and half no problem...Still trying to find the contradiction in my first statement...I honestly have no idea what you meant there. Sorry you felt torn to pieces; will try being "nicer" I guess.

 

[muscimol]

LOL You really shouldn't believe things just because a marketing team told you so..

I'm not listening to the marketing team. I understand how does it work and it helped me understanding how does real transmission work. Thanks to iRacing I've learned how to make clutchless gear shifts in real cars with synchromesh transmission.
Engine stall isn't connected to the transmission model but to the engine model - we got to wait for remodeling it.

There is no other sim on the market which models to that extent synchromesh, dog-box and fully automated transmissions. When you sit in the car in iRacing you exactly know what kind of transmission that specific car use - show me other sim, which allows it.

You may not like iRacing, or their business model, the way cars behave, but the simple fact is this is the only sim with sophisticated transmission model on the market. Personally I don't like the automated transmission in iRacing cars - the same as in real cars, but hey, if the real car uses it, the simulated one should use it too.
But I do love manual dogbox sequentials, you can really feel the gears engaging, the torque in the transmission and how it reacts to your inputs. Additionally there is the transmission flex and fantastic sound connected to this and the overall effect is amazingly immersive and when I drive a car in rF2, AC or pCARS this is the thing I'm missing the most.

What did you think of the Chris Harris video? Not quite rapid fire high rpm downshifts but still goes from 4th to 1st in about a second and half no problem...

You can do it in iRacing McLaren too, it's a matter of timing. The guys in FW31 which also uses fully automated transmissionn are able to downshift so fast, that some people said it is impossible for a human to downshift that fast - it is a matter of timing.
You are simply contradicting facts - the ECU in GT3 cars doesn't allow downshift when the selected gear will over-rev the engine - RTFM - I've posted link to Porsche website where it is clearly written.

 

[Rhys Gardiner]

What did you think of the Chris Harris video? Not quite rapid fire high rpm downshifts but still goes from 4th to 1st in about a second and half no problem...

The video seems consistent with what I experience in iRacing. As long as I'm mindful of when I start downshifting, I can do the same with no issues. Heck, I even downshift faster than 3:15 in iRacing. The only time the gearbox will slip into neutral for me is if I apply throttle during a downshift, which I think interferes with the ECU's preprogrammed rev-matching.

Still trying to find the contradiction in my first statement...I honestly have no idea what you meant there.

I saw it as a contradiction because not letting you stall the engine and fry the clutch are sophisticated features in and of themselves. I'm sure you'd agree that a transmission with those features is more technologically advanced ("sophisticated") than one without. That's where I was coming from with that statement.

Oh, and just to clear something else up...

I'm pretty sure the OP knows better than to try to downshift to first gear at 150 mph and probably knows how to time his downshifts, this is something you learn within a few minutes of being in a car for the first time, it's not like this is an advanced driving technique that only the most professional of drivers can comprehend.

That's not what I was implying. It's not the simple act of downshifting that I was referring to, I was referring to downshifting within the constraints of the ECU. The "professionals" comments were a bit off, I agree... I messed up. I blame that on a whacked-out night of sleep and not having had my morning coffee! Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

I saw it as a contradiction because not letting you stall the engine and fry the clutch are sophisticated features in and of themselves. I'm sure you'd agree that a transmission with those features is more technologically advanced ("sophisticated") than one without. That's where I was coming from with that statement.

When I say transmission model I am talking about all of them from semi-automatics to H-Patterns...An H-pattern transmission model that won't let you stall the engine (and yes @muscimol stalling an engine from letting the clutch out too fast with very little rpm's is part of the tranny model) and takes no damage is by far NOT the most sophisticated available today.

As of 6 months ago a person that was correctly using an H-pattern in game would always be faster than somebody using autoclutch and sequential no matter what kind of transmission the virtual car used. This is the same philosophy that pretty much every driving game has always used where auto clutch and sequential is faster then full auto and shifting with clutch and H-pattern is faster than everything else...that works for games but not so much for a realistic simulator. Maybe this has been changed but I haven't seen anything about it in any of the release notes for the past few builds.

Oh well, too much time has already been wasted on this already....I was hoping that a few basic things in iracing had changed so I could enjoy the content that I bought in the past but that isn't the case...Have fun and good luck to everybody in their races.

 

[Rhys Gardiner]

When I say transmission model I am talking about all of them from semi-automatics to H-Patterns...An H-pattern transmission model that won't let you stall the engine and takes no damage is by far NOT the most sophisticated available today.

Oh, right! I thought you were talking about the ECU-aided transmission system in real life, not the way transmission types were modelled in-sim... that's where the confusion was. In that case, I agree with you, I think it's very odd that iRacing won't let you stall an H-pattern car like the Mazdas or the SRF for instance. Well it's good we have that cleared up...

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

Cheers!!!!!

 

[muscimol]

and yes @muscimol stalling an engine from letting the clutch out too fast with very little rpm's is part of the tranny model

Yes, it's part of tranny model, the other part of engine stalling is in engine model, so unless they'll do it too, you cannot make it work.

I admit that right now it is the thing that I don't like in iRacing the most - the permanent anti-stall feature. Nevertheless, the transmission model in iRacing which simulates everything else related to transmission, is great.

BTW. You should be able to stall every car with manual transmission, nevermind it's h-shifter or sequential, synchromesh or dog-box. Only fully automated transmissions have built in anti-stall feature.

PS. If you like to know what kind of transmission is used in every car in iRacing here is the table:

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

You can shut off the engine in iracing...that part is already there....And yes, any car with a clutch pedal should be able to be stalled and should be able to be damaged....I've read that once AC implements mechanical damage if you downshift without using clutch (in any vehicle that has a clutch of course) and aren't in the allowed rpm range you will make the acceptable rpm range smaller and smaller until eventually you will not be able to change gears at all....this will be pretty cool.

Maybe the OP just doesn't know how to drive or maybe there is actually a problem with the model...it seems the jury is still out.

 

[muscimol]

You can shut off the engine in iracing...that part is already there....

This is really half-baked solution as for now. You just have a switch of engine working/non-working. There is no engine sound related to turning on/off the engine and there is no physics related to it.
It have been introduced only too be able to turn off the engine on the grid to prevent from engine overheating and limit fuel consumption, there is a probably much more to do.

I think it's not as easy to implement this feature to be really realistic. Almost every other sim does offer engine stalling but I'm not impressed with the implementation in any of them. The fact is you cannot teach anyone how to start moving the real car using the clutch pedal without stalling the engine in any of the existing simulations.

It just feels wrong and I don't know if it is a problem with our controllers or the simulation itself (engine, transmission, clutch models).

 

[Mark Reynolds]

Seriously, its a freaking game, if you don't enjoy it play ANOTHER game.

There is not a simulator on the planet with is 100% or even close to 100% perfect, and the only ones which are even near reality cost millions of pounds and are also flawed.

Some people in all these forums take being a fanboi to a whole new level, they are all games ffs, grow up and grow some and get over it.

This is not directed at any one particular person btw......

 

[Bakkster]

If the shift is going to end up with revs that are that high, then it's not a perfect rev-match. You see it in other cars and other sims as well - The F1 and HPD in iRacing, the Formula Reiza in GSC. Only difference is that instead of defaulting to neutral, these cars won't let you initiate a shift at all until it's safe to do so.

I would consider that a glitch then, shouldn't the Ruf transmission lock out of lower gears rather than crashing to neutral?

Half of the GT3 cars at Daytona were gentlemen drivers and the commentators remarked several times how they were just rich dudes with a lot of money wanting to live out their childhood dreams.

More than half

I've read that once AC implements mechanical damage if you downshift without using clutch (in any vehicle that has a clutch of course) and aren't in the allowed rpm range you will make the acceptable rpm range smaller and smaller until eventually you will not be able to change gears at all....this will be pretty cool.

Synchro wear, nice. Presumably not in a dog box car, right?

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

Seriously, its a freaking game, if you don't enjoy it play ANOTHER game.

There is not a simulator on the planet with is 100% or even close to 100% perfect, and the only ones which are even near reality cost millions of pounds and are also flawed.

Some people in all these forums take being a fanboi to a whole new level, they are all games ffs, grow up and grow some and get over it.

This is not directed at any one particular person btw......

No idea who that is directed at but if you can't handle people having conversations, opinions, and debates maybe you shouldn't read forums.....or maybe you should take your own advice and grow some (???) and get over it.

@Bakkster Only the cars that are applicable of course.

 

[muscimol]

I would consider that a glitch then, shouldn't the Ruf transmission lock out of lower gears rather than crashing to neutral?

If you've locked up the tires during the downshifting, the electronics may decide to put it to neutral.
Maybe right now it's just oversensitive, or maybe the transmission flex messes up things.
I remember there was a similar problem in FW31 after introducing the transmission flex but they've fixed it, so I suppose the RUF transmission require some more tuning to prevent it and will be fixed too.
Edit: The other reason I can think about is that people are releasing paddles to fast, just after the gear disengages but before it engages to the next one... but it wouldn't explain why it's not the case in manual sequentials.