Adjusting Sim Pedals/Realism

[stigs2cousin]

@Andrew_WOT :

you´ve really put a lot of work into researching this

Good to know that "simulators work as a training tool" is scientifically proven.

On the other hand the hypothesis that " G forces effect the pedal forces" is only mentioned, not proven experimentically, so anecdotal "evidence" at best.

Also there is no prove that there is only one way to set up brake pedals "the right way".

In the end this is just another internet argument to pass the time, we will not agree on one solution.

What we can take from this is that it is highly beneficial to experiment with simulator settings, what "feels right" sitting in the rig may not give optimal performance in the long run.

MFG Carsten

 

[RasmusP]

I'll add this to the discussion.
He apparently has some experience with different cars and only reached 40% brake pressure, while his he could barely hold his head up under braking, lol.

I feel he's exaggerating a bit but it seems you'd really have to stomp on F1 brake pedals.

A GT3 car with their "amateur" drivers in the mix will surely be a LOT easier!

 

[blekenbleu]

He apparently has some experience with different cars and only reached 40% brake pressure, while his he could barely hold his head up under braking, lol.

That is consistent with interviews of F2 drivers getting their first F1 practice runs
as well as folks like Nico Hülkenberg and Nyck de Vries, who have F1 seat time
and try to stay in shape, but (like some regular F1 drivers at first test of each season)
say that nothing keeps them in shape (particularly the neck) like actually driving.

I feel he's exaggerating a bit but it seems you'd really have to stomp on F1 brake pedals.

In his final season with Mercedes, Valtteri Bottas reported after one race well into the season that his braking leg had begun cramping. The "stomp" part seems accurate;
most braking capability is available in the first instant,
thanks to speed-related aerodynamic downforce.
The real trick may be trailing off pressure accurately as speed and downforce reduce.
I do not doubt that what allows e.g. George Russell, Lando Norris, Max Verstappen and Charles Leclerc to excel in real F1 as well as sim games is their exceptional adaptability, more than the realism of their sim rig pedals. Meanwhile, Lewis Hamilton had before 2022 been frank about being not fond of spending time in simulators.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

On the other hand the hypothesis that " G forces effect the pedal forces" is only mentioned, not proven experimentically, so anecdotal "evidence" at best.

There are testaments from multiple pro drivers in the video posted earlier.

Formula of Gravitational Mass is fairly simple.
Fg = m*g

Given that average male leg has 16.7% of total body weight, female is 18.4%.

We are getting to our assisted braking force due to deceleration formula
Driver Weight x 0.167 x Deceleration G = Assisted Force

For F1 car
70kg x 0.167 x 5G = 58.45kg or 128.86 lbs

That looks quite significant to me.

Regardless, in sim rig you can set pedals to where you feel comfortable and have the best control, it's your rig after all, the whole point of discussion was to show that in pursuit of realism we might tend to set pedal resistance to the actual resistance in the real car without taking into account this additional factor.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

The "stomp" part seems accurate;
most braking capability is available in the first instant,
thanks to speed-related aerodynamic downforce.
The real trick may be trailing off pressure accurately as speed and downforce reduce.

Absolutely, if anyone ever calibrated pedals in DiView or similar software, achieving high pressure in there by stomping is easy, but holding this pressure, or slowly releasing is completely different level of effort.

 

[stigs2cousin]

We are getting to our assisted braking force due to deceleration formula
Driver Weight x 0.167 x Deceleration G = Assisted Force

For F1 car
70kg x 0.167 x 5G = 58.45kg or 128.86 lbs

That looks quite significant to me.

Indeed your math looks sound to me, the hypothesis that the complete mass of the leg is driven into the brake pedal is flawed regretably. I only know one driver personally whose complete leg is detachable in the aftermath of an motorcycle accident. And his leg does not wheigh 16% of his bodymass because it consists mainly of carbon fibers and titanium.

Dropping the bad jokes, as stated above the wheight of the leg can not be counted completely as it is firmly connected to the rest of the body which is firmly strapped into the seat. .

MFG Carsten

(The "owner of the leg" wouldn't mind my typing this as he is really cool about it.

You should see him sitting at a Bar and rotating his "knee" 180° so he can rest his beer on the sole of his shoe)

 

[Deleted member 197115]

as stated above the wheight of the leg can not be counted completely as it is firmly connected to the rest of the body which is firmly strapped into the seat. .

Only if you drive with your legs fully extended, in proper sitting position legs are bent at the knees and the hip. You can't generate enough power by ankle movement alone, so push starts from the hip and down to the knee extension, forward G-force from deceleration will extend leg at joints, assisting with straightening.
If you ever sit in a spinning carousel with legs pointing outward you should know the feeling.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Interesting response to Enzo's claim on reddit.

 

[stigs2cousin]

Let´s just "agree to disagree", as I don´t fit into a F1 car (and nobody is stupid enough to lend me one ) I´ll never be able to prove my view with experience, let alone data recording.

So consider this case closed and have fun racing,

MFG Carsten

 

[BrightCandle]

I found a source form Mercedes saying the drivers get a 100KG force assist standing on the brake pedal from deacceleration due to the weight of their leg - https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2019/06/formula-one-brake-systems-explained/

But all it claims on the total force is that it requires well above 100KG. Which to me sounds like its definitely less than 200KG.

Then on the F1 blog for braking pressure at Canada they claim 930 KG for a lap in total (https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/...-brake-systems-feel-the-strain-in-canada.html). Its a bit of a useless measure intentionally hiding the real data but there are seven corners on that circuit. That makes the average 132KG per corner but from the assist we get from Mercedes with 100KG legs suggests the driver only has to produce 32KG of that force. That isn't the peak, the F1 source to me is suggesting maybe the peak is up to maybe double the average from Montreal and so potentially we are talking 250KG for a corner with 100KG leg assist for a total of 150KG. That is a lot of weight to be putting into a brake pedal and the higher de-acceleration will have more assistance.

This only matters if you care about matching F1 levels of effort of course because you are training for F1 in real life. Otherwise you may as well try the pedal in a few different configurations and work out what you gel with. I published a guide a while ago about the 7 things you have to be able to do with the pedal in the T-LCM topic and that is ultimately what matters anything else you are doing for other reasons other than performance.

 

[RasmusP]

If we take G assisting the brake force as a given, I'd say it works like this:

The driver gives a stomping impuls of let's say 150kg, then the Gs kick in and he only has to "stand on the brake" without pushing himself into the backrest.

Then the G force fade off and also the driver has to lift the brakes due to less aero grip.
So he basically just keeps his leg in the same position, while he slowly stops hanging in the belts.
When starting to turn in, he can fine tune the brake pressure from the foot/knee.

Simulating this is not possible anyway without a backrest that pushes you forward depending on telemetry G force.

So I'd say you can just as well set the brake pedal to whatever works for you and do some leg exercises in the gym and call it a day

 

[blekenbleu]

Simulating this is not possible anyway without a backrest that pushes you forward depending on telemetry G force

Increased pressure on one's back during braking would be IMO highly distracting and unrealistic. Unless one were otherwise too far from the pedal, it seems unlikely to help increase braking pressure.

 

[RasmusP]

Increased pressure on one's back during braking would be IMO highly distracting and unrealistic. Unless one were otherwise too far from the pedal, it seems unlikely to help increase braking pressure.

Yeah totally agreed! I wasn't serious about this. It would simulate the positional changes but it would be very distracting and definitely weird.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I found a source form Mercedes saying the drivers get a 100KG force assist standing on the brake pedal from deacceleration due to the weight of their leg - https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2019/06/formula-one-brake-systems-explained/

But all it claims on the total force is that it requires well above 100KG. Which to me sounds like its definitely less than 200KG.

That's a good bit of information.
Excerpt

At this deceleration, their leg will weigh approximately 100kg, and the weight of their leg on the brake pedal provides its own form of servo-assistance to help them - the harder they press, the more the car slows, the more it slows, the more their leg weighs which helps them to press harder.

What is remarkable is that in the midst of all this , while pressing the pedal with well over 100kg of force, the driver is required to modulate his effort on the pedal with all the delicacy of a concert pianist in order to coax the car through the corner at the very limit of what the tyres will permit - it is a delightful contrast of violence and gentleness

And on the brake adjustments there are 3 parameters you can tune individually to get final result suitable for your personal preferences, goal, and realism.
- Travel
- Stiffness
- Resistance (at max force)

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

And on the brake adjustments there are 3 parameters you can tune individually to get final result suitable for your personal preferences, goal, and realism.
- Travel
- Stiffness
- Resistance (at max force)

I'm not quite sure what you mean with resistance here?

 

[Deleted member 197115]

I'm not quite sure what you mean with resistance here?

How hard you need to press the pedal to get max force with stiffness and travel staying the same.
Simtrecs for instance has dial to adjust loadcell sensitivity, very useful in fine tuning.

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

Right, so the force needed to get 100% output for a game.

You can't really change these independently.
Stiffness = the force required to compress/bend something a certain amount. For example, N/mm, like you see in spring rates.

If I increase the force, while keeping the same stiffness; I will get more travel.
If I increase the stiffness, but keep the same force; I will get less travel.
If I increase the stiffness and increase the force; I will get the same travel. (If both are increased with the same ratio of course)

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Right, so the force needed to get 100% output for a game.

You can't really change these independently.
Stiffness = the force required to compress/bend something a certain amount. For example, N/mm, like you see in spring rates.

If I increase the force, while keeping the same stiffness; I will get more travel.
If I increase the stiffness, but keep the same force; I will get less travel.
If I increase the stiffness and increase the force; I will get the same travel. (If both are increased with the same ratio of course)

Once you near the end of compression where elastomers resistance gets increasingly stiffer or their setup is stiff to begin with, it's pressure that drives load cell reading up.
With Simtrecs it works brilliantly, I can have the same travel and resistance, and just change how hard I need to press at the bottom to get these 100% reading.
With HE it kind of worked too, except you cannot change load cell sensitivity, so you are mapping lower raw values to 100% DI Input with some precision loss as you discard part of the load cell raw reading range.

In other words, you can have very stiff pedal with little travel and different pressures required to get to 100%, from very easy to very hard.

When you stand on scales, the movement of the plate is minimal, but reading changes depending on the weight put on.

This should help to brush up on how load cells work (not for you Enzo, for others)

Load cells work by converting a specific type of mechanical force—typically tension, torque, compression, or pressure—into an output signal. This output signal is then transmitted via a load cable to the scale’s indicator where the precise weight can be measured and read by the operator.

 

[Deleted member 1066209]

Whoa, that's a very neat feature of the Simtrecs!

 

[Jan Larsen]

How hard you need to press the pedal to get max force with stiffness and travel staying the same.
Simtrecs for instance has dial to adjust loadcell sensitivity, very useful in fine tuning.
View attachment 631088

Isnt this the same as Fanatec's onboard brake pressure adjustment via their wheels?