Worried about the future of rF2

[Richard Eriksson]

As the topic suggests...

As a long time ISI supporter and follower, i am now feeling a bit worried for the future.The number of new users coming in to rFactor2 seems to be dwindling.

Also there is a long time between the new official content. And even when there is official content released, it seems to fail to gather an interest (Civics in December) amongst the yet unitiated.

Also, the mod community seems a lot more reluctant than for rF1, with very few members adding content.This is even more worrying as it was the foundation of rF1 and a big selling point for bringing more people to the franchise (race anything you like).

ISI now also faces a stiff competition as the "sim" genre has become "hot" again with more titles in the works, that seem to gather a LOT more interest: AC, pCars etc.

The old veterans like myself are finding ourselves drawn to the likes of GSC, and newcomers are moving towards AC and probably DTM Experience.


I start this topic to see if someone shares my worries, and also to discuss if something can be done to once again bring more interest to rF2?


My personal idea is to go for Steam greenlighting (i actually REALLY like Steam as a platform), to gain exposure and also simplify the purchasing as well as updating.
Connecting it to Workshop makes modding interesting again, like what AC proposes.


I want rF2 to succeed, it is by far the most comprehensive take on simulating the actual race mechanics and based on that it should be the goto title for the serious sim-user, but right now i fear it is not.


Discussions on graphics i will however discard personally, as a) rF2 is pretty enough and b) the prettiest of settings in something like pCars is inaccesible to 95% of users.


So, what is your view of the status of the product?



Points of improvement needed going forward as identified in this thread so far:

* Better GUI (incoming)
* Steam integration and release
* Possible new distribution method that would automate updates and sync, if not steam
* New official content
* More transparent development
* Shorter build intervals
* More efficient code and optimization of codebase
* A possibility to "lock down" the core functionality, to deliver something considered stable and final
* New updater that allows automatic updating of content as well, including adding NEW
content

 

[Ricardo Edelmann]

Hey Richard,
I own rF1 rF2 AC and some more sims... and i really have to say that i'm worried about rF too... But i mean it isn't the fault of the Community... most people are using other sims from time to time to maybe get something new... rF2 is just not up to date... For example: Look at AC or pCars these Games look so nice and even if the physics are not that good as in rF most people try them just because they look and run better... i mean i have a good rig here at home but rF2 doesn`t run quit well... AC runs much better and looks much better.. i get about 100 fps on AC with max settings... on rF2 i have to turn off one graphic card to get just 40 fps and it still doesn`t look as good as other games...
Second thing is Content. there is just not enough good content for rf2... i mean in all the years it's been on the market nothin really happend... sry but i have to compare it once again to AC... AC is getting updated every 2 weeks with a new car or a new track etc... I mean the guys of Kunos aren't looking for the perfect physics of the cars but they are really fast... the guys of ISI seem to chill out too much... they don't even have to be as fast as the guys of kunos but a bit more official content would be great...
I really liked rF1 i played it for several years. rF2 in comparison is just another sim for me... and unfortunately not a really good one...
We have to stay strong and wait for something to happen i think...
I hope that there is something up ahead for us to make the game more competitive...

Cheers
Rico

 

[RaceNut]

Regarding the mods, I thinks there is too much unfinished in the game for many to commit time and energy into making content only to have to make changes as the core game develops.

I think rF2 does fill a void in the Sim market but, has lost a lot of interest lately due to the lack of updates that really interest a large number of people. AC is getting a lot of the attention by releasing regular updates. It's a brilliant marketing tool IMO, not without risk though. Kunos shows us consistent progress while listening and responding to customers quite well.

The graphics in rF2 leave me wanting more improvements but, that's not the most important thing. I see both AC and rF2 needing lots of work in the area of sound dynamics but, being one of the last things to be developed, it's not fair to judge that very closely yet. The UI of AC is done well IMO, and the App's feature is brilliant. rF2's UI is a bit awkward and clunky by comparison at this point. Of course, the physics are what these are all about at the end of the day for most of us and I find both titles to be very satisfying to drive.

I think interest in rF2 will improve as the game develops and features are locked down, more content is released, mods get announced/released and news on other titles slows a bit. Some mod developers are simply waiting to see what happens with rF2 and AC to make a decision where they focus their energy in the future. Until that happens, AC will continue to garner more attention and news with each bi-weekly update. Consistent progress is what we'd all like to see, if things seem to have slowed too much, doubt and negativity creep in.

 

[Richard Eriksson]

Interesting replies from you guys... I will change my view to include two points i think is needed:

Locking a final version down BEFORE the likes of AC or risk getting stuck in perpetual, neverending development. Also, market the sim when final. Send a copy to PC Gamer for final review.

and

Steam! I can not stress enough the importance of the smooth updating for AC, as far as usability is concerned. I understand the reluctance, but if not Steam then AT LEAST make a system where mods and content can be registered on a central server and downloaded/updated at one click. The same for new official content.

Look at the list of files on the rF2 download page... It's not very friendly. Look at AC in steam catalogue, one purchase, then auto-install, weekly updates, future mods by Workshop...

 

[Tim Ling]

I bought a full rF2 license when it was released. rF1 was my favourite sim, the look, the moddability, the whole 9 yards. But I'm not sold on rF2. Why?

First it was the drivability of the cars, it was like driving on ice, and not fun. I was told to check the track settings, and sure enough I had it set to green. Green track as default? Not a good idea imo, as it immediately puts off casual simmers who want to drive fast now now now!

Second was the updating. I often checked the game files were up to date, but stupidly assumed that all the ISI MODS would be updated too . It wasn't until I went to download the Civic that I realised all the mods needed updating too. Suddenly the driving experience was better, and I started enjoying it again. But without people like @Rupe Wilson telling me rF2 needed another look, I wouldn't have bothered.

As for graphics, it does need to be considered. I was racing Clio's round Sebring with weird shadows following me, I mean come on! Shadows in the replay are wonky too. I have no issue with FPS, or how pretty the game looks, but they need to get the basics right.

I must admit that the game has come on well, the FFB and physics are great, but with AC slowly pulling away from the pack, and R3E beginning to catch up fast, rF2 needs to turn up the boost and get the code settled so that the modders can get to work.

 

[Rene Reiterer]

i have started simracing with the rf2 release.
at the beginning we thought that there will be a finished game in about 6 month.
so where are we now after two years?
...in the official ISI forum someone made his expectations for the new build like:
"some things fixed, some things broken"
in my opinion this is the dissapointing truth.

i am always a bit scared doing a rf2 online race... there are so many bugs that can quit your race -
to list them all would go beyond the scope.

BUT (!)
even if i would say iracing is my main sim at the moment i always come back to rf2 just because of it´s great feeling.
of course i am always a bit frightened by the look of it, but i don´t mention that after a few laps.

 

[Tim Meuris]

looking from a distance at the game
I don't own it but I know a few who do and browse the forum regularly:

-the most complete sim as it covers lots of aspects (realroad etc)
-it has the btcc honda civic (yes for me that is THE absolute car)

BUT:
-lots of those aspects aren't ironed out yet
-the game is not well optimised
-lack of feedback from developers
-lack of updates unlike AC you don't have a 'release date'
-(sound and) graphics aren't up to par with the rest of the upcoming titles

 

[Lou Sytsma]

I don't own it myself but am compelled to add to Tim's points that those BUTs are the big reason the Modding Community has not got behind rFactor2 like they did with rFactor.

And why Modders are holding off throwing their hat into the rFactor2 ring. If rFactor2 does not clearly establish a delivery timeline soon - and one that is not going to be eclisped by Assetto Corsa or pCars or whatever - it is going to wither on the vine.

 

[Tim Ling]

looking from a distance at the game
I don't own it but I know a few who do and browse the forum regularly:

-the most complete sim as it covers lots of aspects (realroad etc)
-it has the btcc honda civic (yes for me that is THE absolute car)

BUT:
-lots of those aspects aren't ironed out yet
-the game is not well optimised
-lack of feedback from developers
-lack of updates unlike AC you don't have a 'release date'
-(sound and) graphics aren't up to par with the rest of the upcoming titles

I think that's the main issue Tim. 2 years ago rF2 was awesome in its ideas, its graphics, its physics, its FFB.
Now it's merely ok compared with newer titles. If the mod scene was thriving, that wouldn't be a problem, but as it stands things don't look too rosy right now.

 

[Richard Eriksson]

Well. The physics is the big thing with rF2. The actual simulation engine is mostly top of the line and still not bettered by anything else.

But this does not matter if new content is not delivered. Either from a mod scene, or from the developers. As a serious sim enthusiast you are looking for a platform rather than a one shot product. This is ISIs vision as well, but if said platform lacks the driving forces to expand it it will go stale.

For reference of how importantt his is in the slim genre that simulation is, see the original rF1 or in a different subgenre, Flight Simulator X, still very much a viable sim platform with huge support. Therefore it will surpass the rivals.

I think ISI should not adapt to mainstream but keep their famed hardcore sim approach, but they should definitely make the product easier to use and supply it with more content. This will increase it's appeal as a platform to base further simulation on...

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

In defence of rF2 it has to be said that you still see good mods (Endurance Racing X) and tracks (Bahrain by McNolo) being recently released. Also a big league as FSR is adapting to rF2 for 2014.

ISI has a small artist delivering content, only two members in the track building team, so I doubt they could possibly release in much quicker schedule unless they sacrificed quality. For example some tracks that AC have released are basically conversions from their previous product Ferrari Virtual Academy (Nürburgring for example is very obvious), whereas all the recent rF2 tracks have been scratch built as far as I know.

Regarding modders, I really do not see any reason for them to hold back their work, as there will not likely ever be a version 1.0, just as there isn't with iRacing. During the last year or so I haven't seen any rF2 update that would break an existing mods or track from being usable, so this worry is completely unnecessary imo.The feels3 tracks (Poznan etc) are still working fine and they were released in 2012 - early 2013.

The graphics performance issues on triple screen and usability aspects such as a horribly cumbersome menu and packaging system are what I find the main issues with rF2. They don't prevent anyone from racing though, but they are annoying.

 

[Rene Reiterer]

bahrain for example, is a really nice release. but from the first news that mcnolo is working on it to the release about 13 month has gone by. it seems to be so much more work to bring quality mods to rf2 than it was for rf1.

what i am really worried about are the issues about the fundamental functionality.
build 382 made online races complicated because of its prediction code. 494 completely stopped the MP at its beginning...
those things aren´t helpful making rf2 more popular.

 

[David Dominguez]

Second thing is Content. there is just not enough good content for rf2... i mean in all the years it's been on the market nothin really happend... sry but i have to compare it once again to AC... AC is getting updated every 2 weeks with a new car or a new track etc... I mean the guys of Kunos aren't looking for the perfect physics of the cars but they are really fast... the guys of ISI seem to chill out too much... they don't even have to be as fast as the guys of kunos but a bit more official content would be great...

I dont think lack of content is really a problem, rF2 covers lots of racing class cars... from touring cars you have Clios, Meganes, Civic... from GT class cars you have the Nissan GT-R GT1, Corvette C6 GT2, Camaro GT3, Nissan 370z GT4.... old historic content such as 3 different F1 class race cars plus Brabham BT20, the two Howston cars with their upgrades, and lots of open wheelers, starting from the very base with a Skip Barber, and promoting to higher classes (Formula 2, Formula Renault 3.5, and 2 different F1 cars). On the number of tracks I agree that number is a bit low, however the quality of the last 3-4 tracks is really good, and as John said they cant really do more with the current number of track artist guys. Overall I think ISI team is smaller than Kunos nowadays.

Kunos on the other hand has been releasing their cars wisely, they had them ready long time ago, but they didn't release them all together, so that makes people think that they are working a lot And surely they are working a lot, but no way to make 1-2 cars and 1-2 tracks every 2 weeks. Look Nurburgring for example, they released it just 2 weeks ago and it's basically a port from FVA track, which was released in 2010... and there are videos of guys playing AC at Nurburgring already in 2012 in some event.

From an online point of view rF2 cars are also much more interesting, as they are all race cars, trust me that very few people will race online with Exiges and F40s...

 

[Richard Eriksson]

@David Dominguez
I agree that the amount of content right now is quite good. The slight worries are more concerning the rate at which new content appears...

 

[Ricardo Edelmann]

@David Dominguez It's true that there are cars for every class. BUT it's mostly only 1 car per class. which i think is not enough. My opinion is: You can't open a gt3 racing league with only one car available... The track: There are only a few good ones.. i saw some tracks even in some leagues here on RD that looked horrible... It's a shame that we have to use tracks like this. and even if the AC Nurburgring was ready in 2012 it still looks better than almost all rF2 Tracks... Another Point: I think People will race in exiges or F40s... I mean why shouldn't the people drive these cars... they are fun to drive like the clios. AC has a lot more coming. As i said in my earlier post: it's just like rF2 can't compete with the newer games because of it's engine and the content that's released...

 

[David Dominguez]

@David Dominguez It's true that there are cars for every class. BUT it's mostly only 1 car per class. which i think is not enough. My opinion is: You can't open a gt3 racing league with only one car available... The track: There are only a few good ones.. i saw some tracks even in some leagues here on RD that looked horrible... It's a shame that we have to use tracks like this. and even if the AC Nurburgring was ready in 2012 it still looks better than almost all rF2 Tracks... Another Point: I think People will race in exiges or F40s... I mean why shouldn't the people drive these cars... they are fun to drive like the clios. AC has a lot more coming. As i said in my earlier post: it's just like rF2 can't compete with the newer games because of it's engine and the content that's released...

Well, personally I don't have anything about 1 car races, but giving that rF2 is an open platform, one should expect modders to fill those absent cars. They have the tires ready from ISI cars, which is the most difficult thing to achieve (physics-wise).

Regarding tracks, nowadays they have so much detail that they took a lot of time to be properly done, not only ISI but also Kunos and iRacing. And if we compare total number of tracks, it's quite similar between AC (10 race tracks and a few variants) and rF2 (12 and some variants as well). Mugello and Nurburgring are mainly a port from FVA which was launched in 2010, and tracks like Trento Bondone (which I believe it's another port, this time from Netkar Pro) and Spa have not been released yet, so that leaves only to 6 race tracks really designed for AC that are ready. I think we won't be able to compare Kunos and ISI's work rate until AC 1.0 is out with all the content. From there we will see who is faster creating extra content.

About the Exiges and F40 comment, it's just simracing experience, take rF1 as example and tell me how many simracing leagues have you seen using street cars and how many using race cars... anyway I am not against having street cars, they are nice to drive in AC, but they won't have any impact in online activity.

I agree however that ISI's graphics engine is bad in comparison to other games, especially the performance on AMD cards, but at the same time it has to deal with many more variables than any other sim; that is real time weather, real time track conditions, real time lighting, etc. iRacing has full static environments, and same with AC, except lighting, which is restricted to daylight anyway. Working in static conditions is always much easier to deal with.

 

[aerobaticrug]

I would also add that it's quite difficult to adapt for league use. I mean to get teams into a mod, you need to re-package a whole mod. Skins sharing is all very well, but if you have your members wishing to use their own teams, its a nightmare.

It also does not help when they break things in updates - the latest build for instance, delayed display of the server list, the +oneclick option not working. ISI's response is also painfully slow to these type of things.

Take AC for example, they respond the next day with an update if something is wrong in their release.

 

[David Dominguez]

I fully agree on that.

 

[Dino Paolini]

I'm actually more positive about its future than I was a couple of months ago. Since then thank god, some communities/leagues have finally given it a fair chance of trying it and giving it a fair effort of learning to adapt to it.

I think the amount of drivers it has/doesn't have is mostly about a slightly changing preference of the majority of drivers nowadays which seems to be more in the direction of ease of use and more superficial qualities like gfx-quality and content quantity as the most important assets for them.

Also the state it was on in at first beta-release + the expectation of a finished game after 6 months (I think this was very poorly communicated by ISI and not actually intended to be the case imo), did shape some negative opinions which are not that easy to ever change again

So far most guys I know which didn't write off the sim after just a "first look" and nothing else, are really liking it now
And thankfully it doesn't have to be the most popular sim to function for several communities/leagues

 

[RaceNut]

I'm actually more positive about its future than I was a couple of months ago. Since then thank god, some communities/leagues have finally given it a fair chance of trying it and giving it a fair effort of learning to adapt to it.

I think the amount of drivers it has/doesn't have is mostly about a slightly changing preference of the majority of drivers nowadays which seems to be more in the direction of ease of use and more superficial qualities like gfx-quality and content quantity as the most important assets for them.

Also the state it was on in at first beta-release + the expectation of a finished game after 6 months (I think this was very poorly communicated by ISI and not actually intended to be the case imo), did shape some negative opinions which are not that easy to ever change again

So far most guys I know which didn't write off the sim after just a "first look" and nothing else, are really liking it now
And thankfully it doesn't have to be the most popular sim to function for several communities/leagues

I'm always amazed by how many people "write off" a title after one short session. I've read a lot about that in rF2 and AC. There are many who label AC as "Arcade" but, I can't remember rF2 ever getting that label. Some do say that rF2 is too slippery or the graphics just too dated. I think it all depends what games you are used to playing but, I always like to give a title that I'm interested in a few good try's before I make a decision about how it fits into my library.