Well, it may not be Done- but it seems pretty Dead!

Keith_G · Jan 25, 2014

I've put off writing this just hoping that something good would happen but I have no idea what the deal is. I put my faith in SimBin that you would produce a good game and keep it moving forward but my patience has been sorely tested. I believe in supporting the devs by buying their wares so that they can continue to create but after spending much over $100 on this game I have been stuck with hot
lapping for over 9 months. To add insult to injury everything I have bought with full price VRP has been put on sale time and again, just so I'm made sure to look like a fool for buying it early on.

Then you virtually finish another game that has much of what I would love to see in R3E but of course I would have to pay another $55 (40 euro) to get it even though it is highly advertised in the game that I can only hotlap with a few other cars. So obviously you know how to create AI and races but haven't bothered to add even a rudimentary level of it to the game I have already invested a great deal of money in.

I think it is time you apologize to your loyal customers and give us some hope that we haven't been as stupid as we seem! Sure you have contest with nice prizes, but the same 20-30 guys win those every time so they really are only contest between a few very good racers. I don't have a problem with that, and I do have fun racing them but I do have a problem with the way I have been treated. How about it SimBin - step up to the plate and let us know what is happening and give the loyal customers who have purchased much or all of your content a reason to remain loyal!

I do thank Jay for spending time on this forum and trying to respond to some hard questions, but I think it is time that the owners of the company respond to their customers.

Kjell Eilertsen · Mar 26, 2014

Not having a dedicated community manager as a game developer in this day and age is risky business imo. I love having @Jay Ekkel and the rest on here commenting when they can, but the market has changed very very much the last few years and one slight misstep in communications can lead to so many inflated expectations and angry customers that can hurt the company immensly.
I won't claim to be an expert of any sorts, and SimBin may very well be fully on top of this already, but I've seen first hand what poor community management have resulted in for other devs in the industry (non racing related games).

Jay Ekkel · Mar 26, 2014

i agree with you to some extend, I already have a full time job with doing what i do at SimBin, and I pop in around the forums during my spare time sometimes during the day, mostly in the evenings.

We don't have the luxury to have a full time community manager hence we spread the "responsibility" over a few guys that don't mind doing it. Maybe one day we may have one, but lets focus on developing the game for now and when we swim in time, money and champagne consider hiring a community manager.

Until that time has arrived its balls out working on the game!

Mark Reynolds · Mar 26, 2014

It is super important in my mind that people remember that many of the people working behind the scenes are sim racers as well, and strangely enough want the same things as people typically post in forums like this, we also share the same frustrations about certain things, as Jay eluded to many times before when responding to features and expectations, these things take time to do correctly, and correctly is surely the only way forward even if it feels like an agonising wait.

Sk3ptik0n · Mar 27, 2014

Thanks Jay. I appreciate you answering promptly and believe me, I have a lot of experience with corporate structures stifling creativity. I understand your position so please don't take this personally. The mere fact you are here on your own time tells me that you care.

If we had this conversation a year ago, in regard to the liveries, MP, AI and such, I would be much more understanding of the situation.

If the whole thing evolved over the course of 6 months or so, it would be tolerable. However, we are now over a year later, maybe two years (I am losing count) and I am still unable to do anything but hotlap with R3E.

I understand you are a small team and that releasing DTM probably took much of your resources out of R3E but the fact is that in order to release DTM you had to ignore your existing R3E customers.
That was a breach of trust. I can assure you that it will take a long time for Simbin to regain my trust.

2 years ago I would have bought a simbin product sight unseen. I would have told all my friends to buy it too. You were that good.

Today, I did not buy DTM and I have stopped buying cars on R3E. The Audi is coming up but I won't be buying it until I see AI, multiplayer and even then I will do it only because I already have invested in it. If I could sell my subscription to somebody at half price I would.

I don't know who made the bad decisions and what went wrong. But something went very wrong if you guys lost me. It's something your bosses should be acutely aware of.

I find the whole thing shameful as a fan, but also as a businessman. A case study on how to completely lose the confidence of your core audience for a short term gain.

I am sorry you have to sit here and get the brunt of our disappointment. I hope that when those quarterly report show a steady decline in profits, the people responsible, the people that treated us customers as a commodity that was never going to go away will think long and hard about their past decisions. Too bad that one of the few guys that evidently really cares about us is the one that have to listen to these complaints. I'd much rather deliver them to the upper floors.

The only silver lining I can find in this story is that never again I will buy into a "Free to play" scheme without first making sure that they deliver on their promises in a reasonable amount of time. Under that light the money I spent on R3E can be considered an investment.

Matej Lakota · Mar 27, 2014

Written with "sharp pen", but fully respectful to SimBin guy(s), who really care about us customers and also their products. Except I don˙t want to sell my account, I agree with you 100%

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Jay Ekkel · Mar 27, 2014

Thanks gain for the thoughts. I don't have much time at the moment as works soon starts.

But with regard to breaching the trust, IMO it really depends how you look at it. Yes DTM delayed work on the platform which is a miss, but we did get DTM on the platform!!! Which i think is a pretty cool thing to have. An action that surely will be followed by other series in the future.

It was a tough call to either do or do not do it, when we were asked to do it by our Publisher. In the end we decided that I the long run doing it was the right thing to done, as doing race series is what we set out to do so.

But as with any decision, you will be making one group happy, another group sad, another group angry, and another group just don't care. so in all fairness there is no right or wrong decision a lot of the times. Its more of a matter which side you pick on a certain decision.

FYI, R3E was released February 2013, so we are just a year under the way after the release.

Kjell Eilertsen · Mar 27, 2014

@Jay Ekkel While I fully agree that there are no golden "this will make everyone happy" option among a lot of business related choices a company has to make, I think it's safe to say that of you look at RD as an example of the cross section of SimBins dedicated fan base, you will find that your choices the last year have disappointed a large portion of said customers. I'd personally stretch it to using "the majority of you fan base", but I have no actual numbers to base such a bold statement on

Edit: Rehiring @Mark was certainly not one of those choices

Also want to add that I still have a lot of faith in SimBin, despite all this, a company (just like an individual) should be allowed to make a wrong step as long as they come out and admit it and show the will to start working in the other direction.

Jebus · Mar 27, 2014

Good post @Corrado Conti! Agreed on every counts.

Ernie · Mar 27, 2014

Corrado Conti said:
... releasing DTM probably took much of your resources out of R3E but the fact is that in order to release DTM you had to ignore your existing R3E customers.
That was a breach of trust.

Sounds more like a personal thing, because you're not interessed in driving DTM cars. Maybe if Simbin had released a package of your favourite racing series, you would think differently about it.

I for my part don't understand why the release of DTM-E is ignoring existing R3E customers. Yes, the making of DTM-E was using a lot of manpower, for sure. Even if the DTM series is not my favourite racing series, but there is a fanbase which really appreciate that DTM-E was made. I don't like how the DTM license is limited to its own content, but this decision was not in hands of Simbin, i guess. It's better than nothing.

Warren Dawes · Mar 27, 2014

Ernie said:
I for my part don't understand why the release of DTM-E is ignoring existing R3E customers.

I'm inclined to agree.
Hopefully, all that they are learning from the new developments in DTM-E (AI and MP) might be transferable to RRE. It surely can't be wasted effort.

Jay Ekkel · Mar 27, 2014

As a rule of thumb, everything we do (including the "not so good" things) is part of a learning process. And everything we learn all relates to back to the R3E platform.

Craig Stevenson · Mar 27, 2014

R3E is what it is, a WIP and I was initially overjoyed to see DTM:E announced (Touring Cars are what I race most), that very quickly changed with the realisation that SimBin, for me the Holly Grail in Sim Racing had released an incomplete (and overpriced) "Retail" product.

I really want to buy DTM:E to take advantage of the Season Pass but I'm afraid I don't trust them now as to whether they will correct the Sim with the release of 2014 to include Tyre Pressures, Pit Stops etc, if they aren't included it isn't a true "SimBin" Sim and I won't buy it until it's in the £1.99 bargain bin

SimBin have the WTCC Licence, I hope they also get the Aussie V8 and BTCC Licence BUT I trust they don't bastardise those Series to get the games out, i.e. if the Series includes Pit Stops they should be included, unlike with DTM:E!

Jay Ekkel · Mar 27, 2014

yeah well, in my opinion you are right but also wrong....

F.e. the pitstops, I rather do it proper, full animation etc then do a half job with no pit crew or life in the pitlane. Question then is do you implement it bare minimum style or do you wait until you have a more full bodied experience developed...

Kjell Eilertsen · Mar 27, 2014

Imo you release functionally working pit stops and add animations and other bells and whistles once they are working flawlessly.

Jay Ekkel · Mar 27, 2014

this is one of those occasions I mentioned before, half the people will say: " no don't release it until its done" and the other half goes "No release it now you an fix it later".

No matter which decision is made, someone is going to be disappointed with the result.

I myself am an add it now and develop it further over time kinda guy, since I understand the game is still work in progress.

Craig Stevenson · Mar 27, 2014

Jay Ekkel said:
yeah well, in my opinion you are right but also wrong....
F.e. the pitstops, I rather do it proper, full animation etc then do a half job with no pit crew or life in the pitlane. Question then is do you implement it bare minimum style or do you wait until you have a more full bodied experience developed...

Isn't this the point of R3E, it's a constant WIP isn't it?

Jay Ekkel said:
I myself am an add it now and develop it further over time kinda guy, since I understand the game is still work in progress.

Aren't you contradicting yourself a bit now though Jay?

Jay Ekkel · Mar 27, 2014

I agree its a WIP, but it seems not a lot of people realise this, which we will try to rectify as best as we can. And nope, stating a personal opinion and a talking about a decision based on the data and feedback we gather are two completely different things for me. So not contradicting myself, just saying that there are multiple views to any decisions made and then shared what I would do if it was completely up to me.

Sk3ptik0n · Mar 28, 2014

Ernie said:
Sounds more like a personal thing, because you're not interessed in driving DTM cars. Maybe if Simbin had released a package of your favourite racing series, you would think differently about it.

Actually, I love DTM. Together with F1 and V8 supercars are my favorite car series.

The reason I didn't buy it was in part to "protest" DTM having functional AI while R3E didn't, and part because without MP I thought it was overpriced and still short of the goal. But no, I love DTM. I'd love to race in a DTM league.