Season 5 rules discussion

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Just collated a few more recent suggestions for season 5 rules.

Been having a think about the 2WD championship for next season. I was thinking maybe narrowing down the available cars for the championship, to tighten things up. Not saying things arn't tight now because we've had some pretty epic battles this year, but the different cars do favour different stages. So how about this...

Similar to the top flight British Championship change to R3 and R2 only. This will mean modern cars that are pretty easy to drive and forgiving but can be pretty quick in the right hands. I know this excludes a LOT of good cars in the game, but would tighten things up and hopefully attract more divers!

What are peoples opinions?

Thanks
Sion

(Some typo corrected)

My suggestion will be that:
This two higher tier class (RDRC-1(A)/RDRC-2(S)) need not to change to ensure enough variety. However, I think if you need to promote new cars maybe just change in the entry class (2WD Cup and RDRC-P). Just like the national level race racing together as many WRC/IRC events. Only homologated (as according to FIA) car are available to drivers who wishes to fully take part in season. The other cars can be chosen by ungraded/spot participant (like rally club) but no points for them.

i.e. Taking 2WD Cup as example, cars not from R2/R3 may still win a race, but when in terms of calculating points, all non-R2/3 cars are excluded.

===
Which means, like that
RDRC-1 as RDRC-A : A8/A8W
RDRC-2 as RDRC-S : S2000
RDRC-P as RDRC-P : N4 cars (Season participant cannot choose cars in early 2000's like Evo6-8 or GC Impreza)
2WD Cars : R2/3 cars and else (Season participant can only choose among R2/R3)

2WD class (or maybe P class too) maybe entered by ungraded driver once only to make them being graded (but can be still ungraded), this encourage some level of mid-season participation. They can choose to turn into season driver and re-choose the car if not homologated one, providing him/her are graded not too high.

Which means, non-graded driver can still enter RDRC event races with following restrictions.
1. The can only enter only once. (i.e. their next RDRC participation must be a graded driver)
2. They can choose non-homologated cars, but if they do so, they must choose a homologated when they return. Ungraded driver already in homologated cars may still change their car.
3. No point will be counted towards them, even they drive a homologated car and keep the car when they return to race.

This rule can also apply to graded drivers who wished participate only 1 race in season, providing with strong reason.

If there is 2WD Cup, I would still love to see RWD cars used. Or maybe a separate championship for classic cars (RWD).

I would also like to see old WRC`s back, like the ones we used in the last club rally (Battle for Brittain). I mean, its possible to use them now but its almost impossible to compete with them against the newer cars.

I agree with Viesturs, all A8 should be able to score some points; people who are in it to win it will of course choose the latest models, but that would allow other people who drive more for fun to use an older car if they would like.

This also applies to Group N cars and the 2WD cup.

Now my 2 cents: The four classes being used as per today could be called the "International" championship. Then there could be a "national" championship in tandem where ALL THE CARS available in RSRBR are eligible. This would not be split into different classes, all cars would just have an overall classification so no big merit in winning this championship, but more to allow people who cannot commit to a whole season to have some fun in a RDRC event.

Thanks for reading, hope it is of some interest ;)

Maybe we should drop the WRC year down to for example 2005. All WRC cars until that year. Would exclude C4`s, would probably make another car dominant but probably not as popular as C4 at least.

Historic championship would be nice but dropping 2WD would be a big loss in my eyes. It should be promoted as a mandatory for a low-graded drivers or something like that.

For the next championship a little suggestion I have is to change the current WRC cars for the new 1.6 WRC cars which are a bit faster and I think there's not a new WRC car that is faster than the others, I've seen some Mini's Fiesta's and DS3 win some rallyesim rallyes. I think that way there wouldn't be too many of one car. I think before starting season 4 someone had the idea of giving grade 2 drivers the old 2000-2008 cars and the grade 1 drivers the 2011-12 cars, but the new cars were slower than the others, so the idea was scrapped I think, now that the new cars are faster, I think it's possible to do it. Just an idea :)

I am going to be grade 1 next season I think and I hate the new WRC cars and would not want to race if that was my only option. I prefer the idea of older WRC like 03-06 as opposed to the new ones. Limiting one group of peoples car choice to 3 cars seems stupid to me personally.

I was thinking more :

Grade 1 : A8W03-A8W11
Grade 2 : A8W03-A8W06 / N4_S2000
Grade 3 : N4_1/2/3 / N4_S2000
Grade 4 : N4_1/2/3

Non-team championship class for everyone - Gr.A rally cars.

Just my thoughts,

Oscar.

It is possible to have a grading rally where one can lose grading too?
In that case i will take part so i can drive in a S2000 class next year:rolleyes:
I realy don't like any wrc car. It's ok to drive the WRC cars, but boring. The S2000 car are awsome to drive. You can just throw them around and play with them as you like.

Hi guys.

I've considered getting into this championship but it's always struck me as a little over-complicated and rule intensive. Perhaps with the ushering in of a new era, there's an opportunity to streamline things or shake things up a little.

I've had a number of thoughts, which I'd like to share with you and to prompt some discussion.

Ten rounds with a massive break in the middle is both too long and kills the momentum of the season.

I would propose the league running twice a year, with six events, once every three weeks with a ten week break between seasons. That keeps each championship tight and lean and prevents burn out from staff and competitors alike. You'd be looking at the "winter/spring" season starting last week in February and the "summer/autumn" season starting last week of August.

You should do longer rallies with longer breaks between service parks.

Each "stint" should be four or five stages between services. Each rally should always consist of the max 15 stages. Ideally, each rally would be run over two days increasing the overall number of stages in an event - I realise it's more work - but I noticed this was done in the early days of the rally club.

The grading system is a mess.

No offence intended - the grading system is the biggest single turn off for me. The rules are fuzzy, complicated and not explained particularly well. Also, I don't want to be pigeon-holed into a particular class of car based on my estimated speed. Who's to say a "fast" guy shouldn't get to drive something in Group N one season? Or that a "slow" guy might feel more comfortable in the latest WRCs?

Not everyone's a winner, despite society trying to convince you otherwise!

I would propose you do away with gradings altogether. Competitors may not want to play the progression unlock game. The system penalises drivers who don't drive consecutive seasons.

In it's place, open up 6 or 7 classes. You "carefully" choose your ride at the start of the season and that's it. You can't change - you drive what you choose.

For example; new WRCs, older WRCs, S2000, Group N/A, Group B, 2WD.

Competitors fight in an overall championship and a sub-championship for their class. It's clear and straightforward and not muddied with gradings. Did anyone actually care where they came in the Grade 3 points table?

Teams don't work.

I must confess I don't really understand the point of or see the need for a team championship in what is essentially a solitary endeavour. But maybe that's just me.

Utilise more media - get a sponsor.

You should try and approach a small company who might put up a wee prize for the winner/top three in the championship. In return, their name is plastered over everything to do with the league. A small racing related company or maybe one of the indie sim racing rig or custom part makers or something. Say hello to the Demon Tweeks RDRC Season 5!

Every round should be front page news on RD. Get someone to work properly as your media dude - but someone who will stick with it all season. Abuse RDs other communication outlets like FB and Twitter. Generate lots of interviews with the players in the championship, written or youtube. More is better. Exposure will also bring new blood.

Don't worry so much about event videos - lots and lots of work.

Replays.

Again, probably just a me thing - but seems unnecessary and unreasonable to demand replays from all competitors. Especially when RSRBR is so prone to messing things up. Get rid of this rule.

Anyway, I seem to have rambled on a bit there but feel free to comment and maybe I'll see you next season.
 
Hi guys.

I've considered getting into this championship but it's always struck me as a little over-complicated and rule intensive. Perhaps with the ushering in of a new era, there's an opportunity to streamline things or shake things up a little.

I've had a number of thoughts, which I'd like to share with you and to prompt some discussion.

Ten rounds with a massive break in the middle is both too long and kills the momentum of the season.

I would propose the league running twice a year, with six events, once every three weeks with a ten week break between seasons. That keeps each championship tight and lean and prevents burn out from staff and competitors alike. You'd be looking at the "winter/spring" season starting last week in February and the "summer/autumn" season starting last week of August.

Hello there new guy (or, gal)

This was the first season (as far as I know) that lasted a whole calendar year. Don't think it will happen again because of the amount of drop-outs.

You should do longer rallies with longer breaks between service parks.

Each "stint" should be four or five stages between services. Each rally should always consist of the max 15 stages. Ideally, each rally would be run over two days increasing the overall number of stages in an event - I realise it's more work - but I noticed this was done in the early days of the rally club.

The amount of stages between service varies a bit, a rally over two days is nice. But that does mean it will take even more dedication. I really like the way it is now. If it had been on the cz-pluging I'd agreed, because there you can drive when you have time.

The grading system is a mess.

No offence intended - the grading system is the biggest single turn off for me. The rules are fuzzy, complicated and not explained particularly well. Also, I don't want to be pigeon-holed into a particular class of car based on my estimated speed. Who's to say a "fast" guy shouldn't get to drive something in Group N one season? Or that a "slow" guy might feel more comfortable in the latest WRCs?

Not everyone's a winner, despite society trying to convince you otherwise!

I would propose you do away with gradings altogether. Competitors may not want to play the progression unlock game. The system penalises drivers who don't drive consecutive seasons.

In it's place, open up 6 or 7 classes. You "carefully" choose your ride at the start of the season and that's it. You can't change - you drive what you choose.

For example; new WRCs, older WRCs, S2000, Group N/A, Group B, 2WD.

Competitors fight in an overall championship and a sub-championship for their class. It's clear and straightforward and not muddied with gradings. Did anyone actually care where they came in the Grade 3 points table?

See Warren's answer. I do like the grade point tables though.
I mean, I'm never gonna be the fastest here (overall), but it is still fun to see where I can compete over a season against people at my level.

Teams don't work.

I must confess I don't really understand the point of or see the need for a team championship in what is essentially a solitary endeavour. But maybe that's just me.
Teams do work. A team champ is no big workload, but it does add some competition.

Utilise more media - get a sponsor.

You should try and approach a small company who might put up a wee prize for the winner/top three in the championship. In return, their name is plastered over everything to do with the league. A small racing related company or maybe one of the indie sim racing rig or custom part makers or something. Say hello to the Demon Tweeks RDRC Season 5!

Every round should be front page news on RD. Get someone to work properly as your media dude - but someone who will stick with it all season. Abuse RDs other communication outlets like FB and Twitter. Generate lots of interviews with the players in the championship, written or youtube. More is better. Exposure will also bring new blood.

Don't worry so much about event videos - lots and lots of work.

A prize for top drivers. A good way to get the aliens to drive. A good way to make them say positive things about the champ. However, too be honest. A prize for the top drivers here. Would in reality mean that Fernando, Magnar and Manuel will fight for the prize. A prize will not give any other than the aliens any extra.
However, if a prize is awarded by participation (look at RDTCC), and the best gets a little advantage when giving away the prize. It would give all some extra boost when it comes to driving.
But then comes the problem. When one get used to prizes, if we end up with a season without prizes, many will be disappointed.

Replays.

Again, probably just a me thing - but seems unnecessary and unreasonable to demand replays from all competitors. Especially when RSRBR is so prone to messing things up. Get rid of this rule.

Anyway, I seem to have rambled on a bit there but feel free to comment and maybe I'll see you next season.

This is the only way to check for cheating. And by the reputation of some drivers here. It is something that is needed. There are stages where you can earn 5-15 seconds by learning how to cut correctly. That is a huge amount of time.
 
and its only the top 5 out of each class that needs to give replays, the rest of us post because they act as a backup if the old computer-internet-thing-a-me-bob gives a wierd result/time.

But we mostly post them for ammunition/comedic effect for the rdrbr movies... which where brilliant!

I for one am going to miss the brilliant relaxed commentry of roy...
' ahhhhhh here come john for this tricky right turn.... right, right john. O dear he went left'

Roy should be commentating for a living!

classic stuff!

As for the rules, happy to drive what-ever in what-ever class!
 
Ten rounds with a massive break in the middle is both too long and kills the momentum of the season.

I would propose the league running twice a year, with six events, once every three weeks with a ten week break between seasons. That keeps each championship tight and lean and prevents burn out from staff and competitors alike. You'd be looking at the "winter/spring" season starting last week in February and the "summer/autumn" season starting last week of August.
Agreed.

You should do longer rallies with longer breaks between service parks.

Each "stint" should be four or five stages between services. Each rally should always consist of the max 15 stages. Ideally, each rally would be run over two days increasing the overall number of stages in an event - I realise it's more work - but I noticed this was done in the early days of the rally club.
Must've been before my time, don't remember that.

Anyway, great in theory, but near impossible in practice, in the championship at least. If not for the logistics of it (12 sessions over 4 days would become 24 sessions?), but from the driver side as well. Not sure if many people are able to drive two long rallies in a couple of days. Plus, it would be a mess figuring out which session to join when...
Unless you had it worked out differently already?

The grading system is a mess.

No offence intended - the grading system is the biggest single turn off for me. The rules are fuzzy, complicated and not explained particularly well. Also, I don't want to be pigeon-holed into a particular class of car based on my estimated speed. Who's to say a "fast" guy shouldn't get to drive something in Group N one season? Or that a "slow" guy might feel more comfortable in the latest WRCs?
Warren explained the grading thing nicely. I like the idea of it as well.
Someone new to the game will inevitably try the newest WRC cars, hit a brick wall competing with regular WRC drivers, let alone the fastest ones, and most likely simply stop driving altogether. This way they have a chance to compete with drivers of similar pace.

I would propose you do away with gradings altogether. Competitors may not want to play the progression unlock game. The system penalises drivers who don't drive consecutive seasons.
It doesn't really (or it didn't). You can get any grade immediately, without any results in the previous seasons.

Competitors fight in an overall championship and a sub-championship for their class. It's clear and straightforward and not muddied with gradings. Did anyone actually care where they came in the Grade 3 points table?
There is that already, the grades are just an extra bit of info, can't hurt.

Teams don't work.

I must confess I don't really understand the point of or see the need for a team championship in what is essentially a solitary endeavour. But maybe that's just me.
As per the real world. Plus, people who team up can share tips, setups, practice together, get matching skins, and in general be BFFs :D
I kinda agree that the teams don't really work, but for a different reason :)


Replays.

Again, probably just a me thing - but seems unnecessary and unreasonable to demand replays from all competitors. Especially when RSRBR is so prone to messing things up. Get rid of this rule.
It's just the top 5 that needed to send them in, the rest did it for the videos.
It was a lot of work though, maybe change it to top 3.

Saving them is good practice anyway; if RSRBR messes up your times, you have a replay to verify it.
 
About grading.. Its pretty hard to say but imagining my self being one of the slowest guys around (Im not far from that but I think Im not between the most slower ones) then I would probably prefer the grading system because of the reasons Warren mentioned. It gives me the opportunity to have a fair fight in some ways. But its not 100% sure I would be up for the grades.

Being where I am right now I am definately against grades, just trying to live with them. Mostly because I want to drive a car or class that I like and not the one I am supposed to drive because Im faster or slower. In some ways the 2WD cup at Season 4 was nice way to go because everyone could do it but there were few downsides. You cant form a team and its only 2WD as the title says. So basically if you dont like 2WD, you are back to driving what RDRC dirrectors think you should be driving which isnt very fun, in my opinion. I really loved one sentence from Namkung "Competitors may not want to play the progression unlock game. " That basically explains everything.

Solution? At the moment I dont have one. Well, I actually do but its currently something I cant fully put on paper. I`ll try in a few day time though.
 
Perhaps just expand the car choices for different grades? And put one class as 'recommended'
Grade 1 - WRC and S2000
Grade 2 - WRC, S2000, Group N
Grade 3 - S2000, Group N, 2WD or whatever
Grade 4 - Group N, 2WD or whatever
 
Apologies for continuing the discussion in the Season 4 Thread, I'll try to carry my answers to Alan into this thread, where it now rightly belongs.

Yeah, the major problem is not grading, but most of them (including me as well) would be the car choice linked to grade. I think one of the major issue is to revise the limit of car choice. I saw many drivers in S2000/GrN says they don't want to drive a WR but rather a S2000/GrN and the bar of top tier can only go for a WR should be no more. Most of them have no intention to sandbag lower tiers but just love to drive their original car. I would agree WR or S2000 maybe too powerful for newcomers and should have some test before, maynot linked to grading.

Now you are opening up the very difficult discussions that Rick and the RDRC Committee have wrestled with for 4 seasons now. "How to balance the need for fair competitive racing within Classes, but still retain some flexibility to allow drivers to drive "preferred" cars". In reality, there is no one solution that fits all, unfortunately to achieve both goals requires some compromises.
If we open up the Classes between Grades to give more choice, you end up with top drivers in the lower Classes. This may not be due to people intentionally sandbagging, but the same end result occurs. Grade 3 or 4 drivers can find themselves competing (unfairly) with Grade 1 or 2 drivers.

I don't believe that there is a single answer that will make everyone happy, so a best compromise for the OVERALL RDRC is needed.

One more thing is the handicap between keyboard and wheel drivers, especially switching from wheel to kb (or vice versa) may affect his performance, thus the level of his opponents, as mentioned in previous post. Any solution about that?

I can't see how the RDRC can take this into account. I'm sure this might happen in extremely isolated circumstances only, and hopefully a good grading system should help.
You can't try to organise rules around this case. Some drivers are much faster with a wheel, some with a joypad, some even with a keyboard. Some wheels may be better than others. If a driver changes controller part way through a season, that can't be considered (or controlled).

One more suggestion then.
If drivers consider the Gradings systems too restricting, and the only consideration in choosing a car is personal preferences, then why not take these proposals even further.
Remove the Gradings, but also remove the Class Championships as well. Just have a wide choice of cars available to allow everyone to choose their favourite, and only have an Open Championship.

Very much lower complexity, much easier for Directors, and no more trying to walk the balance between Classes and Gradings and the endless debates.

Personally, I hate this suggestion, because it removes an important incentive for the 40 plus drivers in the RDRC who would have almost no chance of achieving a podium.
To me, it is the opportunity for "average" drivers to achieve a class result by competing against their "equals" that has set the RDRC apart from all of the other Leagues at RD. This was the ideal that Rick has always strived for.
 
Remove the Gradings, but also remove the Class Championships as well. Just have a wide choice of cars available to allow everyone to choose their favourite, and only have an Open Championship.

Personally, I hate this suggestion, because it removes an important incentive for the 40 plus drivers in the RDRC who would have almost no chance of achieving a podium.
To me, it is the opportunity for "average" drivers to achieve a class result by competing against their "equals" that has set the RDRC apart from all of the other Leagues at RD.
+1

Apart from the Rallyesim Championship too.
I also think that having a Open Championship would make people drop off, as it would be pretty much like competing in Rallyesim. Constantly being in the bottom of the bottom of the chart and hopeless is a bit demotivating, even you're just trying to have fun.

Another sketchy way out would be having groups A & B. Like, WRC-A for the drivers on Grades 1 & 2 and WRC-B for the drivers on Grade 3 & 4, same for S2000, N4, and 2WD. Although this would give too much job to the staff and organizers. And also maybe wouldn't work that well if only a few number of drivers from a certain grade wanted cars from the same class (e.g. only 3 drivers from grades 1 & 2 wanted to run a N4), unless the drivers are OK with it.

Just my 2cents here. :)
 
Another sketchy way out would be having groups A & B. Like, WRC-A for the drivers on Grades 1 & 2 and WRC-B for the drivers on Grade 3 & 4, same for S2000, N4, and 2WD. Although this would give too much job to the staff and organizers. And also maybe wouldn't work that well if only a few number of drivers from a certain grade wanted cars from the same class (e.g. only 3 drivers from grades 1 & 2 wanted to run a N4), unless the drivers are OK with it.

Just my 2cents here. :)

Actually, it might work out to similar levels of results as S4, and with a little pruning, maybe even less fragmenting of results for Staff.

In S4 we had effectively:
Overall
S class
N Class
RWD
Teams
Grade 2
Grade 3
Grade 4.

that was 8 sets of results.

Using Chelton's proposal, with slight pruning and removal of Grade Results:
Overall
WRC-B
S2000-A
S2000-B
N4-A **
N4-B
RWD **
Teams **

Still 8 sets of results and potential to reduce further depending on popularity of some classes. Maybe the ones marked ** could be pruned, I doubt N4-A would be needed???

It's still a lot of work but maybe there is potential to make this work as a compromise.
Rick has proposed an interesting idea for Manufacturer's Teams to the RDRC Directors, which looks to have good potential too.
 
One far fetched option would be to completely reverse the philosophy and drop the classes championship and only have grade championships instead. Before you think I'm crazy, read the next couple of lines:

4 grades, like in S4, and then drivers can choose any car (from a stipulated amount, like in S4 too). Then all the drivers have to do is look in the results list for their grade and see who has got a similar car in performance, and compare themselves against them.

And since for example some drivers in Group N class were faster than many WRC and S2000 cars, keeping just the grades championship would make it closer in each grade despite the car differences. Of course you could have an overall on top of that.

Thanks for taking the time to read :)
 
Then all the drivers have to do is look in the results list for their grade and see who has got a similar car in performance, and compare themselves against them.


I am not sure that this would work very well. The classes allow for competition and excitement for the drivers to be brilliantly manufactured. Look at the fight for the S2000 class in the final round of S4. We were all in the same session and pushed ourselves to drive over and above what we had before. Just having a mush of people in whatever car and seeing who you finish near at the end of the rally would be in my opinion fairly dull and take away from the excitement that the rallies currently produce.

Also the current rule set for replays, teams, how the rallies run with the number of stages and services has proven to be a very strong formula. The grid sizes for every rally of this incredibly long season have not been modest but very good. There are possibly some improvements or changes to be made with overall league structure and the grading / car choices but the actual bulk of the rules are far from broken, in fact they work very very well. I would only suggest to not fix what is not broken at this time. If you do the chances are that some other aspect that we enjoy at the moment will be adversely affected by a new rule set.

Oscar.
 
Another sketchy way out would be having groups A & B. Like, WRC-A for the drivers on Grades 1 & 2 and WRC-B for the drivers on Grade 3 & 4, same for S2000, N4, and 2WD. Although this would give too much job to the staff and organizers. And also maybe wouldn't work that well if only a few number of drivers from a certain grade wanted cars from the same class (e.g. only 3 drivers from grades 1 & 2 wanted to run a N4), unless the drivers are OK with it.

If I'm not wrong (and I guess Roy knows if I am or not). This is the way it's done in Sweden IRL. With A, B and C drivers.
 
The aim of my suggestion is merely to allow everybody to drive a car in the class they wish and not be limited to something they might not enjoy. But that also creates the problem that maybe there will be very few people driving Group N for example.

It is true that it hasn't worked out bad at all this season, in my opinion. However the rules turn out to be (even if they'll be the same), I know I'll be rallying here next season :)
 
Now that the RRC models are out in the latest update, I think we should utilize them new season too somehow :)

Edit: Just tested them all, VERY competitive! Great to drive, I can see them being used a lot next season, you can go absolutely flat out and it isnt as sensitive as the wrcs.
 
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Now that the RRC models are out in the latest update, I think we should utilize them new season too somehow :)

Edit: Just tested them all, VERY competitive! Great to drive, I can see them being used a lot next season, you can go absolutely flat out and it isnt as sensitive as the wrcs.
I have tested the 3 RRCs and likely I will get myself a RRC. I wonder the next (maybe 2013) update will feature R4 cars. Anyway, depends on using S4's RDRC group/newer WRC groups.
 
They do need to sort out the sounds though, its very irritating only having the fabia s2000s sound on all of them.
Hopefully when 2013 comes out it will have R4 and R5 :D
I've got a few ideas written down regarding S5 and car classes etc, would make it more fun for everybody if we involve the RRCs.
 
They do need to sort out the sounds though, its very irritating only having the fabia s2000s sound on all of them.
I haven't been able to download Update 7 yet, but assuming it follows the format of all other Cars in RSRBR, it is easy to allocate engine sounds from other cars. It may not have individual sounds for the new cars, but you should be able to assign another car's engine sound if you consider one to be better.
 
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